Franz, His Son Franz, and Another Franz: Untangling Some Franzes

Besides outright missing information, in the process of gathering all the Stumpfs I can find in the Zrenjanin area, I also come across conflicting information. People becoming tangled up with each other usually because of a shared name and lack of information.

Here’s a case study on untangling some information and errors across several family books. I am by no means being critical of the authors of the family books. The records available and the clues they have to work with must result in a frustrating and nearly impossible job. I treat the family books as a presentation of the best that could be determined at the time the information was being collated and organized. Sometimes, probably always, better information comes to light later after the book has been published. 

Meet the Franzes 

There is some confusion with several Franz Stumpfs. I will number them out and describe them so we can try to sort them out. Their names appear in the records as Franz, Franciscus, and Ferencz, but I will be referring to them as Franz. 

Figure 1. List of Franz Stumpfs in Trish's "Stumpf of Kathreinfeld and Klek in the Banat" database. Numbering will identify the Franzes for this discussion. Red dots are the ones that have overlapping/conflicting information about them. 

These Franzes have mixed up information in the family books: 

Franz #1 

• unknown birthdate and birth place;
• unknown parents; 
• married Eva Klein and had lots of kids together;
• second marriage to Magdalena Brax (see discussion below);
• unknown death date. 
• He was mentioned in "Brick Walls and Loose Branches: Stumpf Men with Unknown Parentage."

Franz #2 

• born 12 Oct 1843 in Kathreinfeld; 
• the son of Franz #1 and Eva Klein. 
• His adult life is unknown, 
• although he was likely a witness to his father's second marriage 
• (see discussion below). 

Franz #3 

• born 12 Nov 1843 in Kathreinfeld; 
• son of Michael Stumpf and Margaretha Kollinger; 
• married Elisabeth Scheidnast;
• died in 1917 according to Grossbetschkerek family book (see discussion below).

These are some other Franzes: 

Franz #4 

• born in 1822 in Kathreinfeld;
• the son of Peter Stumpf and Anna Maria Neurohr;
• he married Margaretha Geser in 1842 
• had a bunch of kids at the same time as Franz #1. 
• unknown death date;
• was also in Kathreinfeld;
• definitely a different person than Franz #1.
• He doesn’t have any mysteries and everything seems in order. 

Franz #5 

• his birth is guess-timated at 1848; 
• has unknown parents; 
• married Anna Rein; 
• had kids in Kathreinfeld; 
• he died in Kathreinfeld in 1923. 
• He was also mentioned in "Brick Walls and Loose Branches: Stumpf Men with Unknown Parentage." 

I won’t discuss the other unnumbered Franzes in the list (Figure 1), because they are all connected to their families and everything seems in order. 

Which Franz was this? 

These are two facts that are attributed to more than one Franz: 

• One Franz married Magdalena Brax/Prax
• One Franz died in 1917 in Kathreinfeld

From the Mixed-up Family Groups of the Family Books 

The Kathreinfeld Family Book (Queiser)

Franz #1 definitely married Eva Klein and had at least nine children together, but probably more. Franz #1 and Eva Klein’s birth, parents, and marriage details are unknown. Their first child is named Franz (Franz #2 in this discussion) who was born in 1843, and according to this listing, died in 1917 in Kathreinfeld. Eva Klein and their ninth child, Jakob, died in October 1868 in Kathreinfeld after his birth. 

Figure 2. Queiser’s Kathreinfeld family book. 

What’s kind of interesting about this entry is that for this book, only births up to 1841 were available, but here we have births from 1843 to 1859. Usually only children who died were known about for this time period, which is probably how Jakob is known. Also, marriages were available, yet no marriage was entered, so perhaps the couple married elsewhere. There is a gap between Anton, born 1859, and Jakob, born 1868. There are likely a few more kids in these intervening nine years.

Bonus: A Question about Eva Klein

One thing that bugged me about this entry, though, is that Eva Klein's estimated birth is 1832, yet her first son was born in 1843. Surely, she was not 11 years old. This made me question whether Eva was really the wife of Franz #1.

The estimated birth year is from her death record, which claims she was 36 years old when she died in 1868. Most certainly, her age was misrepresented at the time of her death. Her birth year would be better guess-timated as 1823, if she is indeed Franz #2's mother, which I am not questioning.

Figure 3. Eva Klein's death entry. (Római Katólikus Egyház [Roman Catholic Church] (Katalinfalva), FHL Film 1190308, digital image no. 607)

The Deutsch Elemer Family Book (Leitl & Müller)

Figure 4. Deutsch Elemer family book by Leitl & Müller

The Deutsch Elemer family book, shows Franz #1 and Eva Klein's daughter Barbara died in 1875 at the age of 10. Although this daughter Barbara is not listed in the Kathreinfeld family book, there is a gap in that family group from 1859 to 1868. She likely fits in this gap with a birth around 1865.

This entry also lists Franz #1 re-married in 1870 to the widow Magdalena Brax. Given Magdalena Brax’s birthdate, everything looks in order. Franz #1’s estimated birth year should be earlier than the 1842 guess in this entry. I would guess closer to 1822.

Also note, a witness to the marriage is Franciscus Stumpf, most likely his son, Franz #2. 

So far, so good, right? 

Some Confusion from the Grossbeschkerek Family Book with Ms. Brax 

Figure 5. Franz #3 in the Grossbetschkerek family book (Leitl & Müller), page 1964.

This listing for Franciscus Stumpf in the Grossbetschkerek family book is for Franz #3 and his family. His parents and birthdate are listed correctly and he has a death date of 1917, very similar to Franz #2's death date in the Kathreinfeld family book (Figure 2). 

Here he is listed with a first wife of Magdalena Prax. This most definitely the Magdalena Brax who married Franz #1 in Deutch Elemer in 1870. Ms. Brax shouldn’t be listed here with Franz #3. 

Franz #3 married Elisabeth Schettneisz/Scheidnast in 1876 in Grossbetschkerek and they had some kids in Kathreinfeld. 

Which Franz died in 1917 in Kathreinfeld?

Figure 6. Franz #3 in the Kathreinfeld family book (Egert)

The Kathreinfeld family book entry (Figure 2) shows Franz #2 with a death date of 17 Feb 1917 in Kathreinfeld. The Grossbetschkerek family book (Figure 5) and the Kathreinfeld family book (Figure 6) shows Franz #3 with a death date of 17 Dec 1917 in Kathreinfeld.

Let’s see if we can determine which one this actually is! 

Checking the church records for Kathreinfeld for 1917:

• it was actually Franz #3 who died in 17 Dec 1917, correctly stated in the Grossbetschkerek and Egert's family books
• there is no death entry for 17 February 1917, 
• so that was probably a typo along with attributing it to the wrong Franz. 
• To further add to the ease of confusion, both Franz #2 and Franz #3 were both born a few months apart in 1843, so the same age.
• Queiser wouldn't have had access to Franz #3's marriage record in Grossbetschkerek, so he wouldn't know which Franz had married Elisabeth.

Figure 7. Kathreinfeld church book entry for death of Franz Stumpf, husband of Elisabeth Scheidnast.
(Heiligen Antonius von Padua [St. Anthony of Padua] Catholic Church)

(I should say for some reason, I started out thinking the dates were the same and therefore one was attributed to the wrong Franz, but later realized the dates were for February and December. My confusion actually paid off though.)

Could Franz #2 be Franz #5? 

It is assumed that Franz #2 was the witness to his father Franz #1’s marriage in 1870. But what happened to him? We also have Franz #5, who is married to Anna Rein and had some kids in Kathreinfeld, but his parents are unknown. His birth is guess-timated at 1848 and he died in Kathreinfeld in 1923. Franz #2 with a birthdate of 1843 is not out of the question to be Franz #5. 

Figure 8. Kathreinfeld family book (Egert), p. 272.

Two of their children not listed here were found in the Sarscha church books. Lorenz, born 1876, married Anna Vidt. Katalin, born 1880, married Mathias Kichler. Franz #5 and Anna Rein very likely have other children born before that. 

Given that 1843 is at the beginning of the "gap-iness" of records, and Franz #5 and Anna's marriage and all their children's baptisms all happened in those locked up gap years, a search of the church records in the archives in Zrenjanin would be needed to find absolute proof of Franz #5's parentage. Without that, I don't feel confident that I can assert Franz #2 and Franz #5 are absolutely the same person. I also might be missing other potential candidates. But, there are no other working hypotheses at this time.

Closing 

I hope this was mildly interesting as a case study, even if you don't descend from any of these Franzes. I don't. They were just bugging me by messing up my database. 

And of course if you, dear reader, have information to add to the puzzle, please let me know.

Corrections made on 8 Jul 2024. I confused the numbering on one of the Franzes! 👀

Sources Used:

Egert, Roswitha, compiler. Familienbuch der katholischen pfarrgemeinde Kathreinfeld im Banat: 1893/1895/1915-1947 (Teil 2). Villingen-Schwennigen: Herausgegeben von der Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Veröffentlichung Banater Familienbücher (AVBF), 2006.

Heiligen Antonius von Padua [St. Anthony of Padua] Catholic Church (Kathreinfeld, Torontal, Austria-Hungary). "Church Books." Historic Archive Of Zrenjanin, Zrenjanin, Serbia.

Leitl, Marco and Rudolph Müller. Familienbuch der katholischen Pfarrgemeinde Deutsch-Elemer im Banat sowie ihrer Filialen: 1790-1944. N.p.: Norderstedt: Books on Demand, 2007.

Leitl, Marco and Rudolph Müller, compilers. Familienbuch der katholischen pfarrgemeinde der stadt Gross Betschkerek im Banat: 1753-1945. 2 volumes. Munich: M. Leitl, 2016.

Queiser, Josef, compiler. Familienbuch der katholischen Pfarrgemeinde Kathreinfeld-St. Georgen a/Bega (und ihrer Filialen): im jugoslawischen Banat 1795-1841/1873. Sindelfingen, Germany: Arbeitskreis Donauschwäbischer Familienforscher (AKdFF), 1997.

Római Katólikus Egyház [Roman Catholic Church] (Katalinfalva, Torontál, Hungary). Anyakönyvek [Church Books], 1795-1873. Digitized Microfilm. Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah, http:/familysearch.org : 2017.

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